I have been keen and excited to do post this article for some time, Duncan, in my knowledge and opinion, runs the longest consecutive Bartitsu club to date, meeting on a regular weekly schedule.
I’ve been keen to understand the success of his club, but also more about the man, his passion for the art and his approach to Bartitsu.
It is my aim in this interview that we will all benefit from his experience and approach when it comes to running our own Bartitsu groups and I would like to thank him greatly for taking his time to answer these questions.
Duncan McNulty – The Bartitsu and Antagonistics Forum
Interview Questions – Duncan McNulty
1. Tell us about yourself and your club?
Are you sure you want to start with that question, I may not leave anything to cover in the rest of the interview? So, to keep things short I’ll answer in the way I open every demo I do.
My name is Duncan McNulty and I have the great privilege of being the Provost of the Bartitsu & Antagonistics Forum. Now that is a lot of words that maybe don’t mean that much to many people so let’s go through them.
Bartitsu is a form of Victorian mixed martials arts (as I am sure all your readers already know). The Antagonistics refers to the historical fencing side of what we do and is less likely to be covered in detail here.
Finally, Forum denotes that rather than a typical top down flow of knowledge we are a collective group seeking to research and train these things. That leads us back to my title of Provost rather than Instructor, Seni, Sifu or any other such honorific.
This is a term used in academia for the person responsible for the admin of a university. So rather than the font of all knowledge and teaching, I am just the person who takes the lead in making sure there is a class and there is someone there with something to teach.
2. How long have you been running your club?
Well in 2012 I started the Bartitsu Amateur Forum, but over time people insisted on paying us so we had to drop the Amateur. Given we were also branching into historical fencing at that time too, we took on the work Antagonistics to replace it.
I was not willing to change the name fully as I wanted the club initials to still be a 60’s Batman sound effect; maybe now I wish that story was not quiet so true. But to answer the actual question, the club is just coming up to being 13 years old.
3. What first attracted you to Bartitsu, and how did your journey in the discipline begin?
Well, I started as a kid wanting to play with swords and be a knight so naturally, I got into sports fencing. Whilst the discipline has many great aspects it just did not scratch that itch.
I gave up for many years and did not come back to martial arts until I was in my mid twenties when I took up Kung Fu. I mean they have swords and I was pretty much raised on Jakie Chan movies. Again, there were great things in it, but just did not feel like fighting.
I then found an online ad for an Italian Rapier class and decided I needed to give that a go and that is how I got into HEMA; thanks to Mark Donelly and the Society for the Study of Swordsmanship. That lead me to being at a HEMA event called SWASH where I had my first real chance meeting with Bartitsu.
I wangled a one on one lesson with I believe Milo Thurston on pugilism and fell in love with it. The boxing led me to learn the Vigny style of cane fighting from Donelly and from there I struck out on my own to learn more about Bartitsu.
Then as often happens life got in the way and when I got my thoughts together again, I was in no financial state to pay someone to train me. So, I did the only logical thing and started a group so that they could pay for me to train them and get my own training in at the same time.
So, I gathered some like minded people and we started training weekly with what we knew between us. I did research on the side, the internet is a wonderful thing, and travelled to train with others when I could to bring new material back to the group. And what was how I got started into Bartitsu and how I ended up running a Bartitsu school.
4. What aspect of Bartitsu do you enjoy the most?
I feel I should say all of it, or maybe something about its adaptability … but really it is the sticks. I guess I never got over that love of swords and swinging a stick around is pretty close. I love Vigny’s system with its speed and precision.
Over the years we have mixed in Shillelagh which gives us power and close in work as well as Cunningham just for some of his wonderful little tricks. I mean don’t get me wrong, I love to strap on the gloves and get my face punched a few times, but nothing quiet compares to cane work.
5. Do you integrate other martial arts or self-defence systems into your Bartitsu practice? If so, which ones and why?
Given that Bartitsu is such a wide discipline in itself I try very hard to keep a tight rein on what else we add before it loses its essence. So, I will really on consider other contemporary systems that have something to add to either pugilism, savate, jujitsu or improvised weapons.
Let’s go through each one and I’ll have a think about what we have added.
The problem I have with pugilism is that is such an ill-defined thing and no matter which system you start learning you’ll end up brining in tricks from other boxing systems. As such it is hard to keep this with any level of purity. The only tip I can give her is to train sometimes without gloves, it will hurt a little, but it will stop you turning your boxing into something more modern. But in terms of what I add, I admit I like Monstery’s boxing and tend to use it as a base for my boxing. It is very practical, easy to learn and includes some aspects of grappling as part of it which makes it less strange to move into later.
Savate is great and I have not really added anything to this part of the syllabus. It gives you a great selection of kicks that work well with any system of boxing you want to add it to. I also love that it is designed to be done in everyday foot ware which makes it easier to translate to self-defence. I do love the open hand work, and I think anyone who ignores it is really missing out on some great techniques.
Jujitsu again is already a system with a million techniques. For this I would say it is more about what you cut it down to rather than what you add. I use maybe about twenty different trips and throws in my training which covered most situations. Add to that some good joint locks and a minimal ground game and I think you have your basics covered. I always see the grappling as a nasty surprise to be added onto your kick boxing rather than the core of the art itself. I am always fighting to resist my students urges to turn everything into floor grappling; I blame too much MMA.
Now improvised weapons gets a little more complicated as there is no set prescribed way to approach this. We use an archetypal system so you can pick up any object and go “it is a bit like a ….” and then you have some techniques you can use with it. So, as well as the cane mentioned above we have also added some period American truncheon work, some Italian cloak principles and a whole host of knife work. Really this is the area where we have added the most supplementary material even though we mostly still just train the cane.
6. Besides Bartitsu, what other classes or activities does your club offer?
Currently we are running four classes a week, each one on a different syllabus. As well as Bartitsu on a Tuesday night we teach Italian sidesword. This is me just getting to swing a sword around as well as engaging another of my passions which is dual wielding. So, as well as sidesword on its own we cover dagger, buckler, rotella, cloak and second sword.
Then we run two classes on a Thursday as well. The first of these is Cutlass in which we teach a whole host of pirate based weapons as well such as knife, Savate and tomahawk.
The final class is Broadsword, which gives me a chance to get in touch with my roots. It is also a really technical weapon and comes with a lot of fun when you add in the drik and targe as well.
As if that was not enough to keep me busy, we also do a monthly sparring session on a Saturday morning. We spend the first hour looking at something random such as sabre, great stick, Spadone, anything really. Then for the second hour we armour up and just get through as much free play as we can.
7. If you could give one piece of advice to someone starting a Bartitsu club, what would it be?
Probably perseverance. If you are starting up a club there are times when it will all go wrong. You’ll end up in a dead-end area of study and have to start over with a fresh take on things. You’ll have time where students are so thin on the ground you are considering close it all down.
There will be times venues are double booked or public transport goes down and things outside your control stop your training. Through all of that, just keep going. You’ll find the right mix of sources and techniques; the students will always ebb and flow and some times everything will just go your way.
Then you look back and suddenly you have just been persevering for ten years and someone is asking you to do an interview about what you are doing.
8. If you could give some advice for those struggling to keep their Bartitsu club running, what would it be?
Oh well, read all the questions first so you don’t end up answering one question in the question before.
So, if I talked about perseverance last time, lets talk about starting up a club this time.
And in good old Blue Peter fashion, here is one I prepared earlier. If you skip past the first half of this video where I am talking about using a straight razor, the second half is on how to set up your own Bartitsu study group. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT3BH_Bndpc&list=PLUspEuV47DoLY7Xc9VRXCbLRU0sXThnYO&index=17)
9. Can people train with you remotely, or is your club strictly for local members?
Given that I have just directed you to some online learning I did it is going to seem weird to say that I am not a great believer in online training. The video above is part of a series I did during lockdown when my students had nothing else. However, wherever possible I always recommend learning in person.
There is just so much context and correction that an instructor watching you can give that you totally miss over the internet. So, whilst I would say if there is really nothing around you then learn from the internet, learn from books, learn in any way you can. But if there is a local group then always take that as your first option.
Even if they are not teaching exactly what you are interested in you will learn a lot of good fundamentals that will make your future studying much easier.
But again, realising I have not answered the question. You can only train with us in person in the north east of England. Having said that, I am always available to travel and teach if we can work something out. Also, we do have some very short refresher videos on our YouTube channel for our students that I guess could be misused to learn a trick or two.
10. How has the landscape of Bartitsu changed since you first started, and how has your club adapted to those changes?
Well, for one, you don’t have to explain what it is all the time. When I started Bartitsu I got so used to going through a speech about what it was but now most people have at least heard of it. Sure, it is mostly through Sherlock Holmes, but at least you are starting from the point of them knowing it is a thing rather than having to justify it is real and not fictional to everyone you speak to.
Tied in with that, there is also so much more information available on Bartitsu. I think when I started there was one book published about Bartitsu, now I own about ten or so. There is also so much information available online that you can gain new insight from as well as additional techniques. This makes it so much easier to research and train but also sadly to get lost down the rabbit hole and end up miles away from where you started.
Now there is not much to adapt to there, but there have been some challenges too. Over the last ten years Bartitsu has struggled to try and work out what it is and where it fits in the world. Is it a suitable martial art for the modern day or is it an interesting pass time and curiosity?
What is classical Bartitsu and what is allowable to add in the name of Neo Bartitsu? Should there be an overseeing body or should it be open source? Over time I think just about every option has been tried with greater or lesser success. This has meant trying to navigate a political minefield between warning factions at time whilst still trying to stay true to my interpretation of the art.
11. What are the most common challenges you see among your students, and how do you help them overcome these?
I think the biggest challenge all students have is fear. It starts before they even show up for their first class, there is the fear or being rubbish at something. This is why so much of our advertising is about trying to make people feel at ease coming and giving something a go.
You can’t get good at something without being awful at it first, but that is a hard fear to overcome. Then comes the fear of looking stupid, of making mistakes and getting things wrong.
There is some weird belief that more experienced students got to be where they are without messing everything up first. I spend a lot of time encouraging students to try new things and not to shy away from sparring. Only when they can embrace looking stupid and move past it will they start making good progress. The next feat is quiet a natural one, and that is the fear of getting hurt. No one wants to get injured, but if you are not looking to get some nice bruises maybe you are in the wrong hobby. Whether it is taking a punch to the face in sparring or just getting thrown at the ground during drills, it takes time to help students get used to taking a few knocks and realising it is not that bad.
12. How do you maintain the historical aspects of Bartitsu while ensuring it remains relevant and engaging for modern students?
I mentioned a bit on trying to stop the scope of what we are studying wander too much in order to keep us relevant to history of what we are doing. I also spend a lot of time in class trying to put the techniques into context. Not just so that their purpose is clear, but also to give a feel of where they come from and how they fit into the systems history.
We also do a lot of demonstrations for the general public, where we get to talk about the history and very much paint the big picture of the system rather than really teach techniques. On the other side of things, we try to keep everything in realistic contexts to modern day life.
There is no point learning to defend yourself against someone who has never heard of Jujitsu any more, those days are gone. Instead, we focus on what things students might encounter and look at how to answer them within the context of Bartitsu. We also run a lot of pressure drills to check that students are capable of performing under some level of adrenaline. This all helps them keep what they are doing relevant to their self-defence journey.
13. Could you share a memorable story or moment from your time running the club?
I remember one time we were doing demos down near Whitby as part of a Steampunk event. It was the usual kind of thing where we set up a stall and talk to people, let them take selfies with the swords. Then every so often we would do a half hour presentation on some aspect of Bartitsu and go into things in a little more depth.
The final demo of the day was on improvised weapons where we talked about our archetypal system. At the end of it we always ask the audience if they have anything they want to change us with to see how we would weaponize it. It is all a little bit of fun and a good way of keeping the audience engaged. It was at this point about thirty custom peddle bikes show up as part of a different convention and start listening to what we are doing. Suddenly I am being handed bike tyres and handle bars and all kinds of things and being asked to explain how to hurt people with them. Of course, I obliged and it was one of the best talks we have every given.
Really informative and everyone had a great time. And to me, that is what Bartitsu is about. Having fun doing something I find interesting.
Connect with Duncan & The Bartitsu and Antagonistics Forum
The Bartitsu and Antagonistics Forum Website
The Bartitsu and Antagonistics Facebook
The Bartitsu and Antagonistics Youtube
Bartitsu, The Martial Art of Sherlock Holmes
If you’re interested in learning more, the Bartitsu club webpage seeks to preserve, extend and promote the art of Bartitsu. Below we have included some useful links on our website.